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Talk:Jean-Luc Picard/archive
Same rank The Background Information section has a line reading: "Other than in alternate realities, Picard is one of only two characters to hold the same rank throughout the entire series. Data is the second." What about Dr. Crusher? She was a Commander (three pips) from start to finish, wasn't she? Article Great article! -- Cid Highwind 03:23, 4 Feb 2004 (PST) Source Does anyone have a source for Picard being flight controller/conn officer on the Stargazer? I don't think this has ever been canonically revealed, so should be removed unless we can locate a reference... --Captain Mike K. Bartel 23:03, 20 Jul 2004 (CEST) Might want to tie in the chat he had with Data on where he says he watched his grandfather go nuts as a child. I'll leave working it in up to someone else. Tyrant 23:01, 25 Jan 2005 (CET)Tyrant First contact with Ferengi? I think that it was Jonathan Archer who made first contact with the Ferengie when they tried to steal everything of his ship. :A) That wasn't the Federation, B) He did not know they were Ferengi, never got a name. --OuroborosCobra talk 11:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC) ::Even so, it wasn't Picard who made first contact. Whilst Archer was the first Human, in , Groppler Zorn said "The Ferengi would be very interested in a base like this." Obviously there had been previous contact or the away team would have said, "Who?" True, the Ferengi were never named in but remember that many events in Enterprise came under scrutiny, many people stated that it couldn't be canon. Most of it is but it is quite hard to stay "within continuity". Dave 12:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC) :Picard made first contact with the Ferengi while on the , before Encounter at Farpoint. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC) :you just contradicted yourself. when picard was on the stargazer he did not know who the ferengi where. according to this line of thinking then archer would be the one who made first contact. (Grim reap 09:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)) ::You have contradicted yourself. Why wouldn't that line of thinking apply to your statement as well? Archer didn't know who they were either, and he never found out. Picard would later find out that he had met the Ferengi. I think that qualifies him as being the first to contact them.--31dot 12:19, 13 July 2008 (UTC) ::Additionally, the statement in EAF does not mean too much other than as a competitor for the base. The Federation doesn't have to have met them in order to compete with them.--31dot 12:21, 13 July 2008 (UTC) Reliant reference The Reliant was mentioned in the script of only, and not in the final episode. Perhaps a small note after the information stating it was from a cut scene would be appropriate? -- SmokeDetector47 21:55, 2005 Jan 29 (CET) :Was it cut? I didn't know that - I was just researching the script to rewrite the Judge Advocate General article when I came across the reference - haven't seen the ep itself for quite some time... -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' 22:17, Jan 29, 2005 (CET) Casting Call I have added the original casting call in backround information. It is quoted from the TNG Companion. Needs Information On... The following currently lacks from the article: * information on "Romance" under "Personal relationships", including Lily Sloane, Jenice Manheim, Miranda Vigo, Anij, possibly also the Borg Queen; * information on interest in classic music and Shakespeare; * more detailed information on events from during TNG. Ottens 15:18, 28 May 2005 (UTC) ***Family could also be greatly expanded. Tyrant 18:39, 31 May 2005 (UTC)Tyrant Between Stargazer and Ent-D? Do we have any information on what Picard was doing during this period? If I recall in "All Good Things..." the scene where Picard takes command of the Ent-D has him reciting his orders; something like: "To Captain Jean-Luc Picard, you are hereby requested and required to..." was there a mention of his current posting in that order? "To Captain Jean-Luc Picard, commanding officer USS-shipname, you are hereby requested and required..." Or do we just not have any info? Logan 5 18:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC) :Additionally, the episode seems to indicate that he was commanding a different ship when he first met Tasha Yar but I'm not sure it's ever been mentioned by name. Seems a long period for him not to be in command, or maybe he was posted to a starbase or at Starfleet Headquarters? Do we have even a non-canon mention of this time period? Logan 5 17:10, 15 Sep 2005 (UTC) Relationship with Data * I wrote as much as I could remember on this sub-topic. Before anybody asks where I found the information on the conversation that Picard had with Data following Riker and Troi's wedding, it is mentioned in one of the deleted scenes on the Star Trek Nemesis DVD.--Scimitar 00:49, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) "Engage!" I think it'd be neat to have a brief article devoted to this command. It was Picard's tagline, but we saw several other characters (Riker, LaForge, etc.) use the command while sitting in the captain's chair over the course of TNG. Was it a standard, recognized command throughout Starfleet at this time, or were they all simply emulating their captain? Was the command ever used by Kirk on TOS, or on DS9, Enterprise, etc.? Do the TNG DVDs include audio commentary -- and if so, did the actors or writers ever discuss where this term came from, whose idea it was, when it was decided to make a habit of it, etc.? I believe Captain Pike used "engage." Bloated Article For a brief period in 2375, Worf rejoined his old crew to reveal Admiral Dougherty's conspiracy concerning the Ba'ku relocation. In 2379, he attended the wedding ceremony of William Riker and Deanna Troi. En route to Betazed aboard the Enterprise, the crew was assigned to Romulus to begin peace negotiations with the new praetor of the Romulan Star Empire, Shinzon. The peace offer turned out to be a trap and in the end Worf, together with the Romulans, had to face Shinzon and the Remans. Finally, he admitted that the Romulans fought with honor, possibly getting over his life-long grudge against this species. :That's just one example of a problem that plagues this article: There's a lot of information that has only, charitably, a tangential relevance to Picard -- and plenty of information, like the above, that has no relationship to Picard whatsoever. This article needs a serious revision, heavy on deletion. Receding hairline There was a paragraph (cited to episodes "Tapestry", "Violations" and Star Trek Nemesis) which described the adolescent Picard having a receding hairline and receiving follicle restorations in his adult life -- i can't find any reference to such incidents in those three sources. If there is a source for these odd claims, i'd like it described in more detail. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 01:52, 5 Oct 2005 (UTC) *I admit it. There is no explicit dialog stating Picard had any kind of hair restoration at all. It just mysteriously fell out and suddenly grew back, only to fall out again. It is highly improbable that the subject will ever get mentioned in any film or TV show. It just isn't as big a mystery as the Klingons' foreheads. But, the explaination I offered is the least complicated and minimally speculative. Something happened to poor Jean-Luc's hair, and it's unlikely we'll ever get an explanation as what. Maybe that would be considred "fanon", it just seemed like the most probable way of clearing up an issue we'll never hear about again. **Hair tends to grow back after being shaved off, but perhaps this mightn't be obvious to everyone. basically, we have Boothby, "Tapestry" and "Violations" all confirming that Picard definitely did have hair until the 2350s. ST:Nemesis has a photo of hairless Picard, played by Tom Hardy while Hardy was also portraying the clone Shinzon, who had stubble visible on his head while playing Shinzon. I think it seems likely Picard shaved his head for some of his academy years. **''Offering'' any "minimal speculation" passed off as cited fact in an article body, rather than a background note, is rather unbecoming of Memory Alpha -- especially if it creates the false inference that you meant to claim it was cited to any of the sources listed -- that would be total disinformation, if that's what "fanon" refers to... -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 04:23, 5 Oct 2005 (UTC) ***The speculation left is even worse than mine;"Picard lost his hair by the 2350s, although he was known to have a shaved head for some time as a student at Starfleet Academy. (TNG: "Rascals", "Star Trek Nemesis", "Tapestry", "Violations")" That definitely was never in an episode or film. It's understandable if both Shinzon and Picard Drink tea, they share the same taste buds. But, since when is shaving your head hereditary? What if we acknowledged the noticable miracle grow on his head and leave it like that. How's this? "Picard lost his hair prior to joining Starfleet, but it was restored in time for graduation. In the 2350s, though, it began to recede again." The italicized comment that Boothby was stunned by Picard's hair loss either suggests that Picard did have hair when they met or was aware of Picard's restoration seems like a valid point to make. I think the solution to the hairline issue is to decanonize "Star Trek Nemesis" as not only a lousy movie directed by a man who knew nothing about Star Trek, but also as a narrative filled with plot and character holes. The reason why the photograph of Picard at the Academy shows him as bald is because no one bothered to remember Picard's history. According to Star Trek Nemesis Picard's Auto destruct code is Picard Alpha Alpha 3-0-5 Um.. no, sorry, but you're completely wrong -- there's no speculation involved. Picard's head was obviously shaved in his Academy picture. You could see the stubble. Try reading what I write before you reply. It helps to keep the conversation on track. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 13:50, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC) CRIMINAL Wasn't anything done to him when he murdered his future self in TNG:'Time Squared" Phasers do have stun settings... :As I recall, he killed his future self to save his ship and crew. He has killed several others in defense of his ship before, why should he be so special? Ironically, he would do the same thing again (with his younger, cloned self) in Star Trek Nemesis. --From Andoria with Love 06:45, 13 Nov 2005 (UTC) Age at Graduation I was just watching , and Q said Picard was 21 years old at the time he was on Starbase Earhart shortly after graduation. Since the episode (and ) also states Picard to be of the class of '27, that would mean Picard was born in 2306. Is there a canonical resource for the 2305 birth year? I know this year has been long standing because it was listed in the Star Trek Chronology and the like, but even that is conjectural, since it was based on the possibility that Picard first attempted to enter Starfleet Academy at age 17, but he could have just as well have attempted at age 16 and accepted at 17. If 2305 is non a canonical year, then we should change it 2306. --From Andoria with Love 19:55, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC) :Picard's birthdate was listed on his personnel file in -- and it matches with -- Being born on July 13, 2305 means that his 22nd birthday was in 2327 -- the point at which he was referred to as 21 years of age in 2327 means that "Tapestry" takes place in 2327 before July 13. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk Okay, that's all I needed to know. Thanks! :) --From Andoria with Love 20:16, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC) Age when he met Beverly There seems to be a bit of an oddity in the reletive ages of Picard and Beverly when considering there romance. taking Picards birth date of 2305 and Beverly's of 2324. Picard was 49 and Beverly 29 in 2353, when Jack Crusher was killed. While statistically there is nothing wrong with their twenty year age gap, it doesnt feel right. Also considering how young Jack looks only 4 years before he died and accounting for the fact that he and picard were supposed to be very close friends. Its feels a bit wrong that Picard is made out to be a bit of a letchy older man. Lusting after a wife in a young couple. :What exactly are you getting at? I doubt he'd be seen as a "letchy" older man at that time, especially since he kept his love for Beverly secret in order to preserve the friendship he had with Jack. And in this day and age where someone like Demi Moore (43) marries someone like Ashton Kutcher (27), or that old guy (now dead) marrying Anna Nicole Smith, or James Doohan (who died at 85) being married to a woman in her forties, it seems the whole "he's way too old fer her/she's way too old for him" outlook is quickly becoming a thing of the past. That said, I'm not sure what this has to do with the Picard article itself. Are you questioning the facts of the two characters' birthdates? If so, those birth years have been canonically established, making them factual, so there really is no reason to question it. --From Andoria with Love 01:24, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC) I am not making an issue here, but I would like to know exactly how their ages were canonically established. --TOSrules 01:47, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC) :Certainly! Picard's age in the past events seen in , set in 2327, was given as 21, which would suggest a birth year of 2306. However, computer bio screen in the episode stated he was born on July 13th, 2305, which fits continuity just fine, it just means "Tapestry" was set before July 13th. That same bio screen also gave Dr. Crusher's birth year as 2324, which would make her 40 at the time of TNG's first season (which is the age suggested in the show's writer's guide/"bible"). And there you have it. :) --From Andoria with Love 04:48, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC) :: The Conundrum bios give days of birth? That is wonderful, valuable to my date tracking. I only wish Wesley was included because his age is brought up the most. --TOSrules 08:52, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC) ::What is Riker's day of birth? That would give us the exact day of --TOSrules 09:55, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::Unfortunately, Riker's bio screen was not seen in the episode (at least, I don't think it was; I think they cut away to the reactions of the amnesiastic crew). However, because the producers used July 13th for Picard's birthday, which is the same birthday for actor Patrick Stewart, we can probably assume they would use August 19th for Will Riker based on Jonathan Frakes' birthday. Again, though, that bit of info hasn't been established. --From Andoria with Love 11:24, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC) ---All we know for Riker is that one birthday fell on (or about) stardate 44286.5. Of course, there's no canon way of converting this to a Julian calendar date, however the guide at http://trekguide.com/Stardates.htm calculates it to be Tuesday, September 6, 2366. Of course, Picard's birthyear is before the 2322 switchover to the "new" stardate system from the movie system, so we can't even really venture a guess. --Lenonn :::It's highly unlikely that there even was a "switchover" between the TOS era and TNG era, as that would cause much confusion for historical record-keeping. However, since most likely took place in October of 2366 and took place two episodes prior, the September 6th date seems like a pretty good estimate, albeit, as you point out, one that can't be used on Memory Alpha. --From Andoria with Love 03:27, 9 Jan 2006 (UTC) ::::Oddly enough, that birthday for Riker fits very closely with my own Stardate system, though mine isn't capable of getting that specific normally... ::::The idea of the "lechy" old man isn't a "thing of the past", btw. In the eyes of most people, at least. Hollywood is just full of sick, cradle-robbing perverts (you forgot to mention Tom Cruise marrying Katie Holmes, who was in preschool when Top Gun was released). My personal belief in Picard's high moral standing contradicts what that barely-legible birthdate on the monitor screen in (I just watched that episode the other night and I certainlly didn't make out a date) seems to imply; I find it very difficult to believe that Picard would have such salacious thoughts about a woman young enough to be his daughter--or vice-versa, for that matter. ::::I think we ought to make it clearer in our canon policy what force certain statements that appear onscreen have against others based on their context. For example, spoken statements should carry more weight than things that appear in tiny text on a viewscreen. If a spoken statement contradicts what's on the viewscreen, the statement should be considered to override the text. ::::That being said, I don't see why we shouldn't consider Nemesis to have effectively retconned Picard's birthdate and the time period in which he was at the Academy, making him about 20 years younger and (hopefully) within a decade of Beverly's age. I always assumed that the Stargazer was his first assignment, and that he became captain of that ship when he was relatively young; I don't know of any canonical evidence that there was ever a another ship that Picard served on before the Stargazer. --Antodav 19:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC) :::: Also, if you draw solely from the episode "Tapestry," Picard was an ensign and got stabbed in the heart in 2338 ("thirty years before" "Tapestry"), and was born 21 years before that, in 2317. Of course, the episode also repeats and confirms the statment made in "The First Duty" about Picard graduating in 2327...which would mean that Picard was only 10 years old when he graduated from the Academy. A brilliant man, surely, but not that brilliant. Plus, if he was that brilliant, I have to wonder why it would be another 11 years before he got an actual posting (presumably to the Stargazer)... ::::In other words, folks, the timeline of Picard's life is FRELLED. However, I'd rather believe that he's only 51 in TNG Season 6 and thus the age gap between him and Beverly is only about 10 years. That's far less obscene than the alternative. --Antodav 06:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC) :::::The writers have deemed the 30-year thing as a mistake, as do we. --From Andoria with Love 17:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC) Opening Quote IF we want an opening quote on this page (which is not something I encourage), is this truly one that reflects Picard's personality? Ottens 17:11, 10 Jan 2006 (UTC) :I personally don't think an opening quote is necessary, nor do I believe this is a quote which best describes Picard. --From Andoria with Love 18:05, 10 Jan 2006 (UTC) *I support the current quote and opening quotes in general. Jaf (I can't log in for some reason) ::It might be useful if you provided us with some kind of argumentation in order to possibly convince us of the necessity of keep this quote. Ottens 13:38, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC) :::I also think an opening quote might be problematic, it relies on a "value judgment" on whether the quote does well to introduce or summarize the character's life (which is what the article -- and therefore the quote -- should be about) -- easy enough if the person is describing themselves in the quote, but how about this one? Picard is talking about a holodeck experience with horses, not describing his life this quote is adding artificial allusions about the scope of his "reins" comment -- such as that it has to do with anything besides his horse and saddle. Does this really seems impartial as a choice? In the world of metaphor, its difficult to remain "encyclopedic". -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 14:36, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC) *He was talking to Riker about being in command when he said it. ::::I think a good opening quote for Picard might be what he said to Admiral Haftel in : "There are times, sir, when men of good conscience cannot blindly follow orders." That, I think, summarizes Picard's character better than anything else. --Antodav 19:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC) *I support the existing opening quote. It is marked as Tasha Yar's statement and it expresses her view of Picard. Nothing wrong with that and her opinion seems to me to describe Picard well.--Skon 16:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC) ::::Just a note, the current quote and the quote being discussed at the beginning of this converstation are not the same. Look at the dates, you will note this is an old converstation. --OuroborosCobra talk 16:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC) :As the article on JLP has gone up for featured article status, one person has commented on the quote used. I suggested the new one (by JP Hanson) but feel free to tell me if it "doesn't fit" the character of Picard. Dave 12:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC) ::Erm, I think Tasha Yar's quote from would be more adequate as I believe it sums up the main traits of his personality, the predilection for art and exploration. Picard himself emphasized many times he was an "explorer", last time in when Shinzon wanted to learn more about his alter ego:(Shinzon: "Were the Picards always warriors?")Besides this, many episodes revolve around his interest for archeology, literature and other forms of art.--Aamin Marritza 10:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC) :::It's funny, as there has been so much debate on this one area in particular. There's no one specific quote that can really sum up a person all at the same time, so I reckon there should be two quotes (three at a stretch). Aamin Marritza, what was Tasha's quote? Dave 16:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC) ::::This was discussed extensively in the debate to make this a featured article. The quote at the top of the page was constantly being changed, removed, and readded. There at last came a general agreement for a single quote to remain in the article at the top of the page. I would urge people not to go back to changing this quote, removing it, or adding others in which they feel should be better. As this is now a featured article, we should avoid such edits which would detract the status of this article. -FC 17:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC) :Tasha's quote was:...the heart of an explorer and the soul of a poet or something like that. As I recall, it was featured as the opening quote in an earlier version and I can't really tell from the discussions on this talk page what you had against it in the first place. On the other hand, I do believe the actual quote is too flat and general. Almost every character was praised for his drive and ambition at least once during the series. And I really don't think changing the quote would affect the article status.--Aamin Marritza 18:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC) :::: I never said I had anything against it. I'm simply saying a general agreement was reached during the FA discussion and I see no need to repeat the same discussion. -FC 19:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC) :Well, it may be so. But I suggested now a more fitting quote, which seems to have been favored in the past, and no one has yet objected against it.--Aamin Marritza 19:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC) Why "Was"? Q: Jean-Luc Picard was a celebrated and well-respected ... Why "was"! He's not dead (not yet)! :Memory Alpha's POV is that of the far future, and therefore all articles are in past tense. This includes Captain Picard. --From Andoria with Love 19:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC) ::So then would we refer to post-''Nemesis'' events such as the invention of the Tox Uthat and the Battle of Procyon V in the past tense too? --Antodav 19:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC) Old friends Donald Varley is listed as an Academy friend, I don't remember that and Varley's article don't state it. - Philoust123 20:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC) :The episode script and dialogue stated that Varley and Picard had been friends for many years. Not sure if the Academy was mentioned or not -- Captain M.K.B. 21:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC) ---- career As a junior officer, Picard was the closest of friends with Walker Keel, and also became friends with Jack Crusher and his fiancé Beverly Howard. (TNG: "Conspiracy", "Journey's End") This event is most likely set in the 2340s (at least for the Crushers) rather than the 2320s-30s ("junior officer" ? any reference) where Beverly is about 10-13 years old - Philoust123 15:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC) All that I found about Keel was that he first met Picard in a bar on Tau Ceti III and that he introduced Jack and Beverly. - Philoust123 18:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC) First Officer on the Stargazer? I seem to recall that Riker once stated to Picard something about him being a former first officer. If this is true (I'm thinking from a second or third season episode), then Picard would have been the first officer on the Stargazer in 2333. Does any of this sound familiar or have I been daydreaming?--Tim Thomason 17:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC) You haven't been daydreaming. I think it was during a first season episode. -Scottmz :Is there anything that establishes that Picard was never on another ship? Or that he couldn't be First Officer of something besides a ship? :--Commodore Sixty-Four(talk) 04:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC) Farpoint Was Farpoint the first mission Picard and the Enterprise were involved in? I always thought it was the first mission we SAW, which included the arrival of several members of the crew, but that the starship didn't spend its first 8 months flying in circles while its Captain avoided his brother. :At the very least, All Good Things... establishes it was the first. We seem him arrive on the Enterprise-D for the first time, and precede to the time of the Farpoint mission. --OuroborosCobra talk 15:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 27 First Contacts I'd think it would be interesting to try bringing together a list of Picards first contacts and see if we reach the number 27 or even go above it. This could certainly be included as a bg note IMO. Out of memory: :Q :Cytherians :Ferengi :Zalkonians :Tamarians :Borg Kennelly 17:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC) :There was also the Malcorians, Mintakans, and maybe the Satarrans and Lysians. I don't know about those last two, they come from . Also the Edo. Just a few more. ----Willie 17:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC) ::Were the Edo established as a "first contact"? --OuroborosCobra talk 17:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC) :::I'll have to watch the episode again, but IIRC that was the first time humans went to Rubicun III. ----Willie 17:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC) ::Well here is Picard's captain's log from the episode. You be the judge :::Captain's Log, Stardate 41255.6. After delivering a party of Earth colonists to the Strnad solar system we have discovered another class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun star system. We are now in orbit there having determined it to be inhabited as well as unusually lovely. My first officer has taken an away team down to make contact and they are in the process of returning to the ship. Stargazer Captaincy The first paragraph about Picard's service aboard the Stargazer, that mentions how he became captain, is unreferenced. What episode did this come from? Can somebody please add this reference. Thank you. -– Ds093 18:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC).. Shinzon/Academy Picard age I saw that there was a post reversion on a change made to Picards age as "late teens". I'm not in favor necessarily of it saying "late teens", or "early 20's"... but do we have a canon citation for either? Wouldn't perhaps "young adult" be better? Of course an actors age has absolutely nothing to do with his characters age, but keep in mind that Hardy was even 25 when Nemesis was released. Opinions? Citations? References?– Hossrex 05:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC) :We know exactly how old he was at the Academy since we have his birthdate (2305) and his year of graduation (2327). He was stated to be 21 when he graduated, per "Q" in and started a year late because he failed his first entrance exam . With four years of classes, that means he was a new cadet at the age of 18. Interesting, that if he had passed his first test he would have become a cadet at 17. -FleetCaptain 11:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC) But the question was "how old was Picard when he took the picture we saw on screen of him in his academy gear", not "how old was he when he started the academy". The question is in an effort determine how old Picard was in the picture we saw Tom Hardy "play" him, so we know whether to call him "late teens", or "early 20's". I think its as equally reasonable to say he was in his early 20's, as it is to say late teens... and thus any specifics regarding EITHER is speculation, and should be replaced with "young adult", or some other such. By your own admission, he was at the academy at both ages 20, and 21 (if he graduated at 21, he would have to have been there at 21). So... he was at the academy at ages 18, 19, 20, and 21... yet we're assuming that picture was taken in the first half of his formal education. Why? – Hossrex 22:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC) Errrrrrrr... nevermind. :) You didn't mention in the talk page that you'd gone ahead and changed the article. :) I wholeheartedly endorse the changes made. Thank you. :) – Hossrex 22:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC) "Spock's wedding" not completely canon This article states: "As a young lieutenant, Picard assisted at Spock's wedding, where he briefly met with Spock's father, Sarek, for the first time. (TNG: "Sarek") :The ambassador saved on Milika III might have been Spock, Sarek or Spock's wife, which would explain Picard's invitation to the wedding. However, Picard declared in the 2360s that he only met Spock and Sarek once. (TNG: "Sarek", "Unification I")" Sarek never says that the son whose wedding Picard attended was Spock. It is implied that it is, but is this really the hard fact we need to be included in this article? Seeing as how Sarek is already known to have two sons (Sybok and Spock), who's to say he hasn't had more since with Perrin or even Amanda? Only the non-canon novel Vulcan's Heart verifies that it's Spock's wedding. – Topher 03:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC) :Mainly because there is only one canon son alive during Picard's life. To suggest there are more, that is non-canon. --OuroborosCobra talk 03:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC) ::Well, stating that there's definitely only one would be just as much speculation. I'm rewording the bit about the wedding - and, I'm removing the background note about the saved ambassador. Not only is it pure speculation, it even delivers its own direct contradiction... -- Cid Highwind 06:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC) :::I like Cid's current wording. But I think a short bg note stating that the person being married was intended to be Spock is in order. In the Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion, it has the following note: :::"Though Sarek's famous son Spock is later seen to be very much alive, Behr recalled the battle at the time just to ''mention the character at all, with caution still in place about dealing with the original series. Picard does say he attended the wedding of Sarek's son as a lieutenant though again Spock is not specified''" :::Which seems to confirm the statement was intended to refer to Spock– Cleanse 02:31, 14 April 2008 (EDT) Cid's wording is better, but still reads into Picard's words by claiming he had assisted in the wedding. As far as I recall, this is not what is said. According to an online transcript, the captain's line is, "I met him once, many years ago, very briefly at his son's wedding. I can tell you that was quite a moment for a young lieutenant, standing in the presence of such history. I remember he spoke to me and I just stood there grinning like an idiot." I think it should be: "As a young lieutenant, Picard attended the wedding of Sarek's son where he briefly met Sarek and Spock for the first and only time before the 2360s. ( ) :Caution was still in place during the writing of about dealing with characters from The Original Series, thus it is only implied that the son in question is Spock. (Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion) Picard's line in only states that he has met Spock before but does not explicitly state when that meeting occurred, though likely it would have been at the wedding. '' " Consensus? – Topher 19:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC) ::Sounds good. FWIW, I just worked on what was there to remove the speculation about it being Spock's wedding. Background note looks good, too. -- Cid Highwind 19:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC) :::Looks good to me :-)– Cleanse 22:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC) Memorable Quotes Are the quotes on personnel pages necessary? They seem to clutter up the page with all the links to each individual episode that the quote is from. They're also not consistent across pages. Some personnel have quotes some don't. Riker, Data, Yar, Troi, Wesley, (his mother has one) don't have quotes but Worf seems to have a few and they really, to me, look out of place. I'm wondering what the consensus view is here at alpha. --Morder 00:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC) :The pages without quotes are just because no one has added any yet. I don't really think 20 odd lines "clutter" a page that is 83kb long... :I think this falls squarely under Memory Alpha:Inform and entertain. They also provide additional insight into the character, whether it be Picard's speeches, Kirk's comments on women, or Worf's deadpan one-liners. – Cleanse 01:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC) ::No problem. By clutter I mean it's just annoying to see all the links to each episode that the quotes are from. No problem though. I'll add quotes when I find good ones...if I find good ones. --Morder 01:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC) Toehold? I don't know if this is just me, but does the phrase "gain a toehold" actually make sense? I thought the phrase was "gain a foothold". This is the sentence I am talking about: :"...dissidents to gain a toehold on the Romulan homeworld."'' Any thoughts? TrekFan 12:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC) :Maybe they weren't big enough to have a "foot"? :D Seriously, though, toehold would imply a smaller foothold, seeing as the toe is part of the foot. It's just semantics. R2data 13:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC) Images I think we should solve the problem of further differentiating the italicized background comments by moving the left images that affect their formating to the right.--Aamin Marritza 12:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC) Featured Article Nomination (29th July, 2008) The Jean-Luc Picard article is very detailed, including lots of references, images and a timeline of events, as well as relevant quotes and detailed background information. I would like to nominate it for FA status. TrekFan 12:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC) * Oppose: My main objection to this being a featured article is the quote which has come and gone several times from the top of the article; in fact, that single quote has sparked at least three edit wars. This is not the marking of a featured article if agreement cannot even come to what quote we should have up there. Not to mention there is frequent editing on this article and it is not all that stable with reverts, pasting, and removed-readded material appearing and disappearing quite frequently. I do like the article, but alas I must object for now. -FC 03:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC) ::Quote issue resolved, so I recant my oppose vote but dont want to support it just yet due to the instability of the article, large number of edits, and anon ip additions added, deleted, and re-added over the past few months. -FC 13:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC) *'Support': This is a fantastic article, very well detailed. As for the quote, a suggestion I would make is perhaps Admiral J.P. Hanson's line from , which went: "I've never known anyone with more drive, determination or more courage than Jean-Luc Picard." Dave 07:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC) : Comment - A fitting quote. I have added it to the page. TrekFan 15:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC) * Oppose for now. I too like the article. I think it is extremely detailed and has virtually everything we know about Picard in it. I do have a few concerns, some minor: *# One is the section in appendices "References in Other Trek Series". The whole section is in-universe, so it needs an in-universe title. *# I don't like the idea of the "Miscellaneous Information" section. This can surely be incorporated elsewhere into the article. *# I can't help but feel the relationships section, while nicely detailed for each person, is rather selective. Shouldn't Troi and Wesley get a short section each? *# His actions in the Klingon arc are noted in the intro paragraph, but I feel they should have their own section. Career-wise, they're certainly as significant as his encounters with the Borg and Q.– Cleanse 01:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC) *'Comment' - I have changed the title (point #1) to "References by other people". I will look at incorporating point #2 into the article itself. - TrekFan 02:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC) *'Support': While I do believe some of the points made here are valid, I also believe that this article is well written, and more then qualifies for FA as is. [[User:Melak|'Melak']] talk 18:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC) *'Support': Very good article.--Aamin Marritza 13:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC) ::My first two concerns have been met, and the second two are more icing on the cake so I recant my oppose vote.– Cleanse 07:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC) * Comment: Aesthetically speaking, I'm not keen on how the italicized background comments are pushed into the same space as regular text by images placed on the left. Such information should be indented and offset from the main content, but with the left placed images the formatting that would otherwise differentiate the two pov's are crushed together, and italics alone are not enough to offset the pov change (seeing as italics also denote an alternate timeline in our style of formatting). I'd rather see that somehow resolved...images moved to the right to restore the formatting, or the indented italics moved away from the left images, before this is featured. --Alan 07:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC) ::That's a good point. I think those left images should be moved to the right.--Aamin Marritza 12:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC) :::Done.– Cleanse 12:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC) *'Comment': Come on, guys! We only need two more votes! TrekFan 17:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC) *'Conditional support' - Having thoroughly examined the article, it is certainly one of the better candidates we've had, and there are just a few things I'd like to see changed. The Guinan section should include the very important events of ; the placement of the Image:Jean-Luc Picard, 2370.jpg in the Q section seems odd, the Worf section seems short, and I'm weary about the "alternate picard"'s quotes being in the "real picard's" quotes section. Other than these minor things - absolutly fantastic article!!! - AJ Halliwell 18:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC) ::I have moved the Picard image further up so it is in the section about his time on the Enterprise. I have also added another Q image to the Q section in its place and removed the AR quotes from the quotes section. TrekFan 11:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC) *'Support': It's nice, detailed, has lots of good pictures. ~Anya Prynn | ''Talk'' 13:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC) *'Support': Now that it looks like all issues have been resolved, I would like to express my support for this article to be featured, too. --36ophiuchi 17:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC) *Voting concluded. Five votes for FA status. TrekFan 19:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)